No Meter Units Deeper?

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11-13-2014, 12:56 AM
Post: #1
No Meter Units Deeper?
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I've often wondered this...

Do you guys think that machines without meters have the ability to go deeper, since there's no 'overload' on the machine handling like 50 different things at once? Case in point...

The Sovereign, one of the deepest units ever made. Or, even the old Troy machines, like the Shadow.

Now, I'm not saying the machine will be deeper because it has no screen, but, rather, since there's simply less going on under the hood that can dilute its efforts, thereby devoting all of its energy to pure, raw depth.

Joe

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11-13-2014, 02:29 AM
Post: #2
RE: No Meter Units Deeper?
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Good question but way to technical for me. Sounds logical though.

biggredd1972, proud to be a member of Treasure Classifieds Forum since Jul 2013. Proud to be using a White's DFX with sunrayDX1 inline probe.Newly added in Jan/2015 White's V3I.
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11-13-2014, 02:58 AM
Post: #3
RE: No Meter Units Deeper?
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My untrained technical thoughts only.  I have no idea if they are correct but just what pops in my head on the subject

I think it is all the processing that causes depth loss etc.  So if a "no screen" machine is filtering the data/signal then it to will lose depth.  Filtering of course is discrimination/notch/ground balance and other tweaks on the higher end machines etc

But if everyone ran wide open all the time,then screen or no screen,I do not think one would have an advantage if using the same processors, software etc.

The screen is not really filtering anything, just relaying information about the signal.  The information on the screen is coming from the filters.  It is the filter that gives accurate information to the screen but could potentially rob it of some raw depth.  But a no screen machine still filters a signal and may deliver it is a different tone etc. instead of a visual ID.

But all metal, single tone on either machine would probably be the  deepest setting as there are little to no filters going on.

Like I said, I may be way off base as I just turn it on and dig and let the smart people worry about how it actually works!! !! Happy
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11-13-2014, 11:58 AM
Post: #4
RE: No Meter Units Deeper?
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Well said, Ron Yes Yes, I realize filters are the 'brains' of the detector, however, all of the data which still must be processed & then output into the screen, etc., is a LOT going on at once. Something, somewhere might get misinterpreted, misidentified, or a myriad of other potential issues. Computers are damn intelligent, yet, just like humans, they are capable of mussing stuff up. I would've thought that taking away ALL extraneous processing/visual indentification, and just having a straight beep & dig unit might've been beneficial for added depth. Let me ask you this then, as a follow-up...

You mentioned above that all metal SINGLE TONE would probably be the deepest unit, which I'd agree with 1,000%, yet, on a Minelab, the tones are so varied. Is this causing a loss of depth? One would imagine so. What say you?

Joe

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11-13-2014, 03:02 PM
Post: #5
RE: No Meter Units Deeper?
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MY opinion only and based on ZERO facts

Yes the tones are still a form of discrimination so I suppose that could have an effect. The newer Minelabs give the option of fewer tones so there is less processing of a signal. So potentially less effect on depth. Don't know how much or what effect that would have in real world.

PIs (Pulse Induction) are beep and dig and are deep. Although a different technology vs the VLF it is the basic beep /dig machine. Yes, they are incorporating some filters and now a little discrimination but that robs depth on the PI as well.

Minelab has success for the fact that they are deep and can ID at depth better than any other machine I have used. Minelab is not the deepest machine I have ever used. Some of the Fishers are deeper but they lack the ID capability at depth so I really don't feel like chasing deep iron all day in hopes of that one old coin. I rather chase the old coins with the Minelab and dig that random piece of deep iron that sounds like a coin. Happy

I have been in areas where Minelabs (E2 and CTX) could hear a target but could not not ID it properly and after digging it up I was blown away that it was a Minie Ball at 14". So Minelab will still hear a target and not be able to ID it but it's range is still better than the competition as far as ID goes.

Sorry--rambling a bit

Just MY opinion
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11-13-2014, 03:20 PM
Post: #6
RE: No Meter Units Deeper?
(This post was last modified: 11-13-2014 03:26 PM by NjNyDigger.)
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Yes, only an opinion, yet, one I agree with FULLY. As I've mentioned before, I own a CZ3D, which was tuned by Dankowski himself. Crazy deep!!! However, it has a nasty habit of calling deep iron as 'good' targets. Now, in fairness, ALL detectors do once a certain depth bracket is exceeded, but it's MUCH more pronounced with the CZ. On just raw power though, it will meet, and probably exceed the depth of any Minelab, with the exception of the GPX's.

I'm a loyal disciple of hunting in all metal, except for the nastiest, trashiest of sites. I know people that just won't do it, though. Why? Beyond me. My hunting buddy Gerry is as experienced as they come, and he prefers discrim mode. I'll call him over to cross check my targets, and on a real deep one, HIS MACHINE WON'T EVEN HEAR IT! Or, it'll sound crappy & broken. Telling.

Why hunt in discrim when one loses so much depth?! Further, on ML's, there's the evil that is nulling, which is another reason to go all metal. Imagine if your machine nulled out over a piece of iron with a seated dime right next to it. You're screwed!

Joe

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11-13-2014, 06:41 PM
Post: #7
RE: No Meter Units Deeper?
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I think you have compare apples to apples-------like disc to no disc.
Otherwise it's like saying a rifle will shoot farther if it doesn't have sights. Happy

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11-13-2014, 06:54 PM
Post: #8
RE: No Meter Units Deeper?
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Try one of the old Fisher 1266x units Joe and see for yourself Think

I think Ron has it mostly right with the "zero disc" thing though too

you will ALWAYS get your best depth out of a machine when using no disc whatsoever

along with your best speed and little to no nulling

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11-13-2014, 07:35 PM
Post: #9
RE: No Meter Units Deeper?
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(11-13-2014 03:20 PM)NjNyDigger Wrote:  Yes, only an opinion, yet, one I agree with FULLY. As I've mentioned before, I own a CZ3D, which was tuned by Dankowski himself. Crazy deep!!! However, it has a nasty habit of calling deep iron as 'good' targets. Now, in fairness, ALL detectors do once a certain depth bracket is exceeded, but it's MUCH more pronounced with the CZ. On just raw power though, it will meet, and probably exceed the depth of any Minelab, with the exception of the GPX's.

I'm a loyal disciple of hunting in all metal, except for the nastiest, trashiest of sites. I know people that just won't do it, though. Why? Beyond me. My hunting buddy Gerry is as experienced as they come, and he prefers discrim mode. I'll call him over to cross check my targets, and on a real deep one, HIS MACHINE WON'T EVEN HEAR IT! Or, it'll sound crappy & broken. Telling.

Why hunt in discrim when one loses so much depth?! Further, on ML's, there's the evil that is nulling, which is another reason to go all metal. Imagine if your machine nulled out over a piece of iron with a seated dime right next to it. You're screwed!

Joe
I've not used a Minelab. What is the all metal like on them. I have used all metal a little on the T2 and the Lobo ST. They both sound like sick squawky birds. What does yours sound like? I've heard that some machines have an "all metal" mode. It's really just a wide open disc mode. I thinks it's Garretts that I read that about.

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11-13-2014, 07:44 PM
Post: #10
RE: No Meter Units Deeper?
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(11-13-2014 07:35 PM)PittsburghWill Wrote:  
(11-13-2014 03:20 PM)NjNyDigger Wrote:  Yes, only an opinion, yet, one I agree with FULLY. As I've mentioned before, I own a CZ3D, which was tuned by Dankowski himself. Crazy deep!!! However, it has a nasty habit of calling deep iron as 'good' targets. Now, in fairness, ALL detectors do once a certain depth bracket is exceeded, but it's MUCH more pronounced with the CZ. On just raw power though, it will meet, and probably exceed the depth of any Minelab, with the exception of the GPX's.

I'm a loyal disciple of hunting in all metal, except for the nastiest, trashiest of sites. I know people that just won't do it, though. Why? Beyond me. My hunting buddy Gerry is as experienced as they come, and he prefers discrim mode. I'll call him over to cross check my targets, and on a real deep one, HIS MACHINE WON'T EVEN HEAR IT! Or, it'll sound crappy & broken. Telling.

Why hunt in discrim when one loses so much depth?! Further, on ML's, there's the evil that is nulling, which is another reason to go all metal. Imagine if your machine nulled out over a piece of iron with a seated dime right next to it. You're screwed!

Joe
I've not used a Minelab. What is the all metal like on them. I have used all metal a little on the T2 and the Lobo ST. They both sound like sick squawky birds. What does yours sound like? I've heard that some machines have an "all metal" mode. It's really just a wide open disc mode. I thinks it's Garretts that I read that about.

They don't sound any different, Will, at least on my Safari they don't. The benefits though, are added depth & no nulling. The tones are the same. Now that I'm used to hunting in all metal, it's VERY difficult for me when I have to go into discrim at super trashy sites. I become very paranoid about depth, and worry that I'm missing stuff. Not comfortable.

Joe

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